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Comments on the article: Why Ukraine has no place in the EU

11/06/2008

Ukraine likes to conjure up the magic word "Galicia" to create an identity of European belonging. Richard Wagner picks apart this myth-cum-trademark in an EU bid he believes is misplaced.

 
steve velychenko
(1 comments)
registered on 11/06/2008
Why Mr. Wagner's arguments should have no place in EU debates.
Those who argue against the membership of one country or another in the EU should at least do so on rational grounds, without bad history and bad logic.
First, Mr Wagner does not seem to know that the bulk of present-day Ukrainian lands were under DIRECT Russian political rule only since the 1780s. That makes for a little more than 200 years. Does that suffice for a claim it has “traditionally answered to Moscow?” I think not. Mr. Wagner also dates a “fusion” with Russia back to Kievan Rus. Since neither Ukraine nor Russia existed in the 10th century, and since the for the inhabitants of the Kievan region at the time, the inhabitants of their north-eastern colonial fringe were about as far away as anybody could be from them, it is difficult to imagine what Mr. Wagner understands by “fusion.”
Second, Mr Wagner also seems to be ignorant of the fact that the Muscovite-Russian variant of Byzantine-Orthodoxy has little in common with any other, particularly its caesero-papism, which influenced Ukrainian lands only for the years when they belonged to the empire.
Third, yes, due to planned imperial government policies streaching back to the 18th century, and continued by the Soviet regime from the 1930s, there is a heavy proportion of Russian-speakers in the country today. But is Mr Wagner implying that language-use determines political loyalties. If he is, would he perhaps advocate the return of Ireland to England, or Brazil to Portugal? It is also true Ukraine remains for the most part a Russian economic colony, but why does he think “Orange revolutionaries” will not change this once they do get hold of the “political reigns?” Or, if European and US and Japanese corporations decide they want Ukrainian labour and resources? Need he be reminded of how many activists it took to separate the American colonies from Britain? Mr. Wagner should also take note that Mr Putin has seen to it that there are no oligarchic interests in Russia, whose political climate is quite unlike Ukraine’s to say the least. He need only have asked any Russian political refugee living in Ukraine and enjoying Ukrainian liberties. Finally, and perhaps most important does Mr Wagner think that the past determines the future? I was of the opinion the past merely shapes it.

Mr. Wagner talks of imperial desires. Yes, the world is a wicked place, but if two interests coincide does the moral worth of one negate the other? How would Mr Wager judge, for example the Hitler Stalin pact? Mr. Wagner goes on to mention the vexed matter of collaboration with the Nazi’s, claiming that all, rather than only some, western Ukrainians were involved. If this is to implicitly disqualify Ukrainians from EU membership and somehow isolate them from his “occidental idea,” he should perhaps take into account that Nazism was a European phenomenon, just like the inquisition, and that lots of western Europeans thought it a good thing, just like many supported the inquistion. Who has the right to cast the first stone?

I shall leave specialists on Galicia to point-out to Mr. Wagner the relevance of what he calls “the Galician myth-cum-trademark” for Kiev's EU bid,” and all his erroneous claims about that region. I will note only one. Habsburg rulers considered western Ukrainians their most loyal subjects, and national leaders in the early 20th century there were not separatists. Precisely because they, unlike Pilsudksi and the Poles, did not change horses in time and abandon Vienna, the Entente in 1918 and 1919 supported Poland and not the West Ukrainian Peoples Republic.


Created on 11/06/2008 | Reviewed on 12/06/2008
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Myron Kushnir
(1 comments)
registered on 12/06/2008
Dr. Myron Kushnir Jr.
Quote:
Unfortunately Richard Wagner's "arguments" are too far from "objective point of view"
Totally agree with Steve.
Seems like Mr. Wagner knows too little about the history of Ukraine (particularly Western) to make judgements on its past and esspecially its future.
The article is full of fact manipulations and cannot even be called a half truth. He used a lot of names and locations here, and for someone who never interested the issue may sound "scientific" or "objective".
But I think the problem is he uses sources published by Soviet propaganda for half a century at least.
Will not list all of them now cause it will take too much space.
But will say this. That Mr. Wagner should be much much accurate in his words talking about the history of Europe, especially about the history of the other Ukraine, which is full of fight and blood for its independence.
But it atleast immoral to call more than 9 million victims of Holodomor (noone can count) in 1932-1933 just a failure of Stalin's forced collectivisation programme. There are hundreds and hundreds of documents published last decade prooving that it was a planned act of genocyde of Ukrainians by Stalin's government.
The question is does Mr. Wagner want to know the truth and to write the truthful things.Cause his article seems to be full of hate to Ukrainians. And please dont look for the truth in sources published by Soviet and now Russian propaganda.
Very sad to hear these kind of objectiveness.
To be continued...
Created on 12/06/2008 | Reviewed on 12/06/2008
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Olena Bobalo
(1 comments)
registered on 12/06/2008
This article is quite strange to me.

First of all I didn’t find any connection between the name of the article and its content. IMHO: the article should include analysis of the existing economical situation, cultural, educational levels, etc. The author writes only bla-bla-bla. I don’t understand how things which happened (or not happened) 200-800 years ago could influence on the decision to enter to any block or union today. I mean that this article doesn’t show why we couldn’t be in EU.

Second, this article looks like the news blocks about Ukraine on Russian TV – the information doesn’t correspond to reality in both cases.

The history’s review caused my laugh – a lot of new there I read about my country :-). It seems that Mr. Wagner wrote his article from smb words and didn’t check it’s plausible.

I don’t want to spend my time by writing what is wrong in this article. I think that person who not even tried to read a few books about the history of Ukraine has prejudice approach. Also I recommend him to familiarize with history of EU countries, especially Italy.



Did Mr. Wagner ever been in Ukraine? I don’t think so :-), probably in Russia.

Created on 13/06/2008 | Reviewed on 13/06/2008
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Les Herasymchuk
(1 comments)
registered on 14/06/2008
Poor knowledge of Ukrainian history
Either the author simply hates Ukraine, or he borrowed his facts from outdated online Moscow-controlled sources.
1. He shouldn't misuse such terms as Muscowy and Russia.
2. For several centuries Ukraine lived in the orbit of Poland and Lithuania - Rrzeczpospolita.
3. The border areas historically were the idea-generating regions (e.g. neo-Platonism).
Ukraine was sometimes the center of several world ideologies, e.g. transforms of Byzantine ideology, Hasidism etc. Many European ideas in esthetics are also from Ukraine, Archipenko, Melevych etc. As a repressive Empire Moscow times and again appropriated foreign ideas.
4. The emigre culture belongs to the Mother country. The author may remember the evening spent by Eliot, Stravynsky and one famous British novelist in a restaurant, when they discussed the problems of their origin and phonology. Stravynsky forllowed the British classic and said that he was also of Polish-Ruthenian origin.
5. Lviv and Western Ukraine were the important centers of Ukrainian culture and ideology and produced dozens of famous names for Ukrainian, Polish and Jewish civiliyations. All of them were rooted in European mentality.
6. The author may know the history of religion and know the role played by Eukraine in such innovative European ideologes as Eastern Orthodoxy (even before it was put under the hand of Moscow ruler; recollect e.g. the role of Kyiv Mohyla Academy in Slavic revival), Protestantism and church unification later called Ecumenism.
7. The very fact of usurpation of Ukrainian territory by Muscowy, Austria as a result of destruction of Poland, or Ottoman Empire and annihilation of centuries old culture cannot deny the olden European cultural roots of this country.
8. The author should not mix-up in a Bush-like manner the questions of histroical trends and mentality with the problems of historically framed administrative control.
9. And the very last one: Ukraine has been there, I mean in Europe, for many centuries already.

Les Herasymchuk
Created on 14/06/2008 | Reviewed on 16/06/2008
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Zbikow
(1 comments)
registered on 16/06/2008
I've have to express my solidarity with the people who put their comments before. Suggesting that the name Holodomor has been chosen on purpose to resemble Holocaust only in order to "upgrade" the event to the rank of genocide is cynical manipulation. This is just not fair to write such things and professional intellectuals should not do that. full stop. The Holodomor has been recognized as a crime against humanity by 23 countries including Parliament of Poland. This article brings up awful things that happend between Polish people and Ukrainians ONLY to support the idea of excluding Ukraine from European Community. I simply can't accept that.
The idea of introducing Ukraine into EU has a significant support in Poland. Not due to any "imperial desires" but due to the situation that we see it as great of chance for final reconciliation.
I've been to Ukraine and met there a great lot of hospitality and friendship (not ever problem with being polish or speaking polish either). Ukrainian writers that herr Wagner mentions are present in Poland widely. I met Taras Prochasko in Lodz to find out that he speak very good Polish. The mutual (and peer!) relations betweens the two countries has never been so good before. I hope views like those in the article won't spoil it. I'd like to believe that Mr Wagner intention was different.

Regards
Zbigniew Kowalski
Lodz, Poland
Created on 16/06/2008 | Reviewed on 16/06/2008
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